The Anti-Sodom | Discussion Page

Synopsis

The Anti-Sodom

What is the modern equivalent of Sodom?

Sdom’s trait

אַרְבַּע מִדּוֹת בָּאָדָם.

הָאוֹמֵר שֶׁלִּי שֶׁלִּי וְשֶׁלְּךָ שֶׁלָּךְ,

זוֹ מִדָּה בֵינוֹנִית.

וְיֵשׁ אוֹמְרִים, זוֹ מִדַּת סְדוֹם.

שֶׁלִּי שֶׁלָּךְ וְשֶׁלְּךָ שֶׁלִּי, – עַם הָאָרֶץ.

שֶׁלִּי שֶׁלָּךְ וְשֶׁלְּךָ שֶׁלָּךְ, – חָסִיד.

שֶׁלִּי שֶׁלִּי וְשֶׁלְּךָ שֶׁלִּי, – רָשָׁע:

Too much justice!

דאמר ר’ יוחנן לא חרבה ירושלים

אלא על שדנו בה דין תורה

אלא דיני דמגיזתא לדיינו

אלא אימא שהעמידו דיניהם על דין תורה

ולא עבדו לפנים משורת הדין:

בבא מציע דף ל ב

Summary

The discussion in this Sugia
has just begun
and therfore has not yet been edited

The Discussion

Do you think there is a “Sedom” today?

first kearn Genesis here and here

Moderator

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12.12.2014| 5:38

Do you think there is a “Sedom” today?

first kearn Genesis here and here

3 Comments

x

commong you guys!

do you want me to flunk you ?

Moderator

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12.12.2014| 16:23

Moderator>
Let the party begin!!
Moderator

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14.12.2014| 1:07

Moderator>
thanks to all those owh replied – shame on those not yet in the ball game !!

don’t forget to reply to each other.

to become talmudists you have to be able to listen and react and not just to

read more >
Joshua Silverman

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13.12.2014| 21:19

Moderator>
I think that there is a Sodom today. Sodom symbolizes sin and evil. As hard as it is to admit, sin and evil are as prevalent today as back in the times of the Bible. It can even be argued that Jerusalem is modern-day Sodom. There is plenty of sin and evil that goes on in the Holy City.

Ari Spellman

13.12.2014| 22:09

I do not think that there is a modern equivalent of Sodom. In the text, it says that the town gathered around Lot’s house ready to rape and kill the visitors. It is easy to say that there are places that are evil, but evil is subjective. I cannot make a claim that someone’ lifestyle is evil because it is different than mine. I may disagree with it, but those who are evil may not think they are

One comment

Joshua Silverman

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15.12.2014| 12:21

Question Ari Spellman>
How can you say that rape is not objectively evil?!5

Alana Spellman

13.12.2014| 22:49

I think that sin is manifested differently in today’s culture, but the idea of Sodom still exists. It is not as common to have men gathering outside homes and asking to rape and kill visitors. There are other ways in which people sin that are equally as terrible as what took place in Sodom like ISIS or terrorism. Sodom is a metaphor for the sins that we ourselves cannot comprehend as being true and a part of reality.

Talia Weiner

14.12.2014| 0:51

I do not think that there is a modern day Sedom. Sedom was almost entirely full of evil people. There was barely anyone there that was good enough to be spared. Just Lot’s family, and even his wife didn’t make it. I think that today there are definitely places full of evil people, but that there are more righteous people in the world and in those places. With knowledge and the internet being so accessible I think that more people are morally aware and understanding. Not to say there isn’t evil, or that the good may be overpowered by the bad, I just think there are more knowledgable and moral people today.

Moderator

14.12.2014| 1:18

Until now most of you are talking about Sedom as if it is Evil in general. But sdom is not described as the Mabul generation was described

but if you read carefully the story it tells about a specific type of sin.

what is the underlying sin there?

Hint: compare it to Avraham’s most famous trait .

6 Comments

Talia Weiner

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15.12.2014| 10:06

Moderator>
I think that the specific sin in Sedom would be the lack of hospitality. Avraham’s “most famous trait” would be his incredible hospitality to everyone. In Sedom, not only are they not hospitable, but they threaten to rape the guests! So it could be saying that Sedom is not totally evil in every way like the mabul generation, but rather it is their flagrant disregard for a very important Jewish value, hospitality.
Ari Spellman

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15.12.2014| 11:26

Talia Weiner>
I agree with Talia. Avraham welcomes the three angels/guests with open arms and dedicates his time to those visitors. This impresses God as it shows true selflessness. In Sdom, the people did not even see the guests and already want them to leave. I think that this can be compared to North Korea. In North Korea, visitors are not only not welcomed, they are not even allowed to come.
Alana Spellman

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15.12.2014| 11:36

Contradict Talia Weiner>
I disagree. I think hospitality is one aspect of Avraham’s greatest traits, but I think it is more general than hospitality. I think it is honoring human dignity. In Sodom, that does not happen. The individuals there are resorting to their inner and most sinful desires and they do not keep their dignity and certainly do not respect that of others.6
עדינה גוטליב

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15.12.2014| 14:53

Alana Spellman>
I agree with Alana. I think that in such a turbulent time, Avraham’s capability to honor human dignity distinguishes him among the rest of his society, and proves his righteousness. By not letting himself accept nor adopt the evils that his neighbors were absorbing to, he emphasized the importance of human life and morality.
Alana Spellman

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15.12.2014| 11:38

Contradict Talia Weiner>
I disagree. I think hospitality is one aspect of Avraham’s greatest traits, but I think it is more general than hospitality. I think it is honoring human dignity. In Sodom, that does not happen. The individuals there are resorting to their inner and most sinful desires and they do not keep their dignity and certainly do not respect that of others.6
אלכס רויזמן

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15.12.2014| 13:40

Moderator>
In the story of Sodom, the natives sinned by attempting to rape and kill Lot’s guests. This is particularly evil because when individuals visit foreign communities, they are at their most vulnerable. Rather than make Lot’s guests feel more comfortable and assist them in adjusting to their new surroundings, the Sodomites intimidated them and threatened them with physical harm.

I think that there are modern day Sodomites as well as modern day “Avrahams,” who display the utmost hospitality.

Tamar Willis

15.12.2014| 14:07

I think it would be a bit extreme to liken a modern-day place to Sodom would be a bit extreme, but the lesson we learn from Sodom still applies to us. There aren’t places that I can think of where pure evil prevails and there aren’t even 10 righteous people among them. However, evil does exist in the world–specifically the type of evil present in the Sodom story, which is ultimately xenophobia.

עדינה גוטליב

15.12.2014| 14:50

I think that modern-day Sdoms still do exist. Though, like Tamar said, there may not be a city in the world where not even 10 righteous people are willing to protest against rape, I firmly believe that to be a by-stander in the face of evil is equivalent to propelling hate forward and letting it thrive. Today, many countries are infamous for having huge sex-trafficking industries that could be deemed the modern form of the sins within Sdom. While not everyone in a city may be guilty of involving themselves in the crime, they are not willing to fight in the face of pure evil, and that in itself is a sin.

Udi Lion

15.12.2014| 14:52

great answer but please attach the icon of what you are doind

מחלוקת ? קושיא? הוכחה

Last Posts

עדינה גוטליב

15.12.2014 14:53

I agree with Alana. I think that in such a turbulent time, Avraham’s capability to honor human dignity distinguishes him among the rest of his society, and proves his righteousness. By not letting himself accept nor adopt the evils that his neighbors were absorbing to, he emphasized the importance of human life and morality.

Udi Lion

15.12.2014 14:52

great answer but please attach the icon of what you are doind מחלוקת ? קושיא? הוכחה

עדינה גוטליב

15.12.2014 14:50

Tamar Willis

15.12.2014 14:07

אלכס רויזמן

15.12.2014 13:40

In the story of Sodom, the natives sinned by attempting to rape and kill Lot’s guests. This is particularly evil because when individuals visit foreign communities, they are at their most vulnerable. Rather than make Lot’s guests feel more comfortable and assist them in adjusting to their new surroundings, the Sodomites intimidated them and threatened them with physical harm. I think that there are modern day Sodomites as well as modern day “Avrahams,” who display the utmost hospitality.

Sugia Kivunim Beit-Midrash

The Anti-Sodom | Discussion Page

Synopsis

The Anti-Sodom

Sdom’s trait

אַרְבַּע מִדּוֹת בָּאָדָם.

הָאוֹמֵר שֶׁלִּי שֶׁלִּי וְשֶׁלְּךָ שֶׁלָּךְ,

זוֹ מִדָּה בֵינוֹנִית.

וְיֵשׁ אוֹמְרִים, זוֹ מִדַּת סְדוֹם.

שֶׁלִּי שֶׁלָּךְ וְשֶׁלְּךָ שֶׁלִּי, – עַם הָאָרֶץ.

שֶׁלִּי שֶׁלָּךְ וְשֶׁלְּךָ שֶׁלָּךְ, – חָסִיד.

שֶׁלִּי שֶׁלִּי וְשֶׁלְּךָ שֶׁלִּי, – רָשָׁע:

Too much justice!

דאמר ר’ יוחנן לא חרבה ירושלים

אלא על שדנו בה דין תורה

אלא דיני דמגיזתא לדיינו

אלא אימא שהעמידו דיניהם על דין תורה

ולא עבדו לפנים משורת הדין:

בבא מציע דף ל ב

Summary

The Discussion

Last Posts

Last Sources

ספריא – Sefaria

English Databases

Why begin in the beginning

THIS LAND IS MY LAND – John Locke

Deviation from the truth

Members

Moderator

Joshua Silverman

Ari Spellman

Alana Spellman

Talia Weiner

עדינה גוטליב

אלכס רויזמן

Tamar Willis

Udi Lion