להתחברות

Kivunim Beit-Midrash

שקרים לבנים | עמוד דיון

תקציר

עמדות פתיחה

שקרים לבנים

כיצד מצילים חבר מזוגיות רעה

Beit Hillel

Beit Hillel

You should always praise a bride
for her beauty.

you cannot offend someone
just  because of truth.

see the Talmudic debate here

המשך קריאה >
1
Beit Shamai

Beit Shamai

Always?!

and what if she is ugly?
You cannot lie:!!

praise her, for what she is.

see the Talmudic debate here

המשך קריאה >
1

סיכום ביניים

Seinfeld's dilemma of truth versus compassion was compared to a Talmudic debate about how to complement an ugly bride. While both values are considered very important in the Jewish tradition , Beit Hilllel claimed that you cannot offend someone for the sake of sticking to the truth. An interesting rebuttal was made that this will lead to a phony polite society where you can never know what others are thinking of you (as illustrated in the Seinfeld ugly baby episode).

The discussion moved to  terminally ill patient dilemma.about his body a Rabbinic ruling made the point that not telling the truth will create a panic in other patients who will be burdened with insecurity about their own fate.

הדיון המורחב

x

In terms of the ugly baby episode, I think this is a situation where you must lie. A baby is a sensitive issue enough where not a singke parent wants to think that their child is ugly. The emotions and love attached to the baby are so strong that if any friend tells the parents it is ugly is a huge insult. Even if the parents recognize the fact that the baby is ugly, they find the  cute aspects of the child and that is all that they want to see.

Alana Spellman
Answer

Alana Spellman

לא-ערוך
3.12.2014| 9:05

In terms of the ugly baby episode, I think this is a situation where you must lie. A baby is a sensitive issue enough where not a singke parent wants to think that their child is ugly. The emotions and love attached to the baby are so strong that if any friend tells the parents it is ugly is a huge insult. Even if the parents recognize the fact that the baby is ugly, they find the  cute aspects of the child and that is all that they want to see.

המשך קריאה >
4 תגובות
  • x

    Couldn't you also use this logic over the question of whether to tell your friend their partner is a monster? A partner in a relationship also has emotion attached, potentially strong emotions, and if your friend hears that that you think their partner is a monster, they could be very insulted. Do you then also think that you should lie when you think your friend's partner is a monster?5

    Max Sosland
    Question

    Max Sosland

    לא-ערוך
    3.12.2014| 9:16
    Question Alana Spellman>

    Couldn't you also use this logic over the question of whether to tell your friend their partner is a monster? A partner in a relationship also has emotion attached, potentially strong emotions, and if your friend hears that that you think their partner is a monster, they could be very insulted. Do you then also think that you should lie when you think your friend's partner is a monster?

  • x

    While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think that in this scenario you have to lie. Perhaps you can just entirely avoid any commenting regarding the baby's appearance.

    אלכס רויזמן
    Contradict

    אלכס רויזמן

    לא-ערוך
    3.12.2014| 9:17
    Contradict Alana Spellman>

    While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think that in this scen you have to lie. Perhaps you can just entirely avoid any commenting regarding the baby's appearance.lkjhaskjlh'

    j

  • x

    What does it mean to be ugly? Are we only talking about physical attractiveness?

    Joshua Silverman
    Question

    Joshua Silverman

    לא-ערוך
    3.12.2014| 9:17
    Question Alana Spellman>

    What does it mean to be ugly?
    Are we only talking about physical attractiveness?

  • x

    But isn't also a good idea to avoid talking about the baby's looks after all? According to Beit Shamai in the text, you should avoid talking about the baby's look period. There are so many things one can talk about when seeing the baby, like talking about the name, the cute little feet, etc.

    Ari Spellman
    Question

    Ari Spellman

    לא-ערוך
    3.12.2014| 9:21
    Question Alana Spellman>
    But isn't also a better idea to avoid
    talking about the baby's looks at all?

    According to Beit Shamai in the text,
    you should avoid talking about the baby's look period.
    There are so many things one can talk about when seeing the baby,
    like talking about the name, the cute little feet, etc.

    המשך קריאה >
עדינה גוטליב

עדינה גוטליב

3.12.2014| 9:06

In telling the parents that their baby is ugly, you are only inflicting harm. Because there is neither a solution nor a way to improve their problem, there is no reason to give your negative opinion. While you do not necessarily have to lie about their baby being good looking – as that would be an intentional lie – you also shouldn't inflict pointless pain.

x

You cannot tell the parents that they have an ugly baby. Unlike the challenge of telling the friend that he has a crazy girlfriend, which is temporary, the baby is permanent and telling the parents will do nothing constructive. Just like how Hashem said to Avraham when he "overheard" Sarah laughing and only said that she said that he was too old for a child, you should avoid the unnecessary, destructive opinion.

Joshua T Verschleiser

Joshua T Verschleiser

לא-ערוך
3.12.2014| 9:08
תגובה ל The ugly baby- Seinfeld>

You cannot tell the parents that they have an ugly baby. Unlike the challenge of telling the friend that he has a crazy girlfriend, which is temporary, the baby is permanent and telling the parents will do nothing constructive. Just like how Hashem said to Avraham when he "overheard" Sarah laughing and only said that she said that he was too old for a child, you should avoid the unnecessary, destructive opinion.

תגובה אחת
  • אודי ליאון
    Proof

    אודי ליאון

    7.2.2022| 14:23
    Proof Joshua T Verschleiser>
אלכס רויזמן

אלכס רויזמן

3.12.2014| 9:11
In the Seinfeld baby scenario, I would not say that the baby is ugly. Regarding the unattractive bride in the case of the Talmud, Beit Hillel said that you should not acknowledge her ugliness, but rather compliment her despite her looks, since there is no going back for either the bride or her husband. Similarly, in the case of the baby, the parents can’t go back and they are stuck with their ugly child so there is not point in acknowledging its unattractiveness. On the other hand, pertaining to the unattractive bride in the case of the Talmud, Beit Shammai said that you must distance yourself from lying. Perhaps in the case of the ugly baby, you can follow Beit Shammai’s opinion by avoiding any comments having to do with the baby’s looks. That way you won’t have to say the truth that the baby is ugly or a lie and claim that the baby is beautiful.
המשך קריאה >
3 תגובות
  • Alana Spellman
    Question

    Alana Spellman

    3.12.2014| 9:14
    Question אלכס רויזמן>

    But can you even comment on other qualities of the baby when you do not know the personality of the baby?

  • אלכס רויזמן

    אלכס רויזמן

    3.12.2014| 9:19
    Alana Spellman>

    I didn't say that you should comment on other qualities of the baby. I simply said that according to the opinion of Beit Shammai, it's probably best to avoid speaking about the baby's appearance.

  • עדינה גוטליב

    עדינה גוטליב

    3.12.2014| 9:18
    אלכס רויזמן>

    I agree, Alex. By not commenting on the baby's physique, you are distancing yourself from lying; I would even conclude that you're not lying at all considering the fact that you're avoiding the subject altogether. Since this is not a life or death situation – like that of Avram's – and since the parent's do not have a choice in how their baby looks nor can do anything about it, it is preferable to distance yourself from telling a lie.

Ari Spellman

Ari Spellman

3.12.2014| 9:15
תגובה ל The ugly baby- Seinfeld>
I think that one should not say the baby is ugly. Babies are highly regarded as something precious to the parents, and to say that a mother's baby is ugly is in no way necessary. Beit Hillel suggests that one should say the baby is cute, but perhaps it could be seen as obvious that the person is lying. Best Shamai says that one should talk about other things about the baby. However, in the case of a baby, we only know their beauty, or lack thereof. It is very easy to avoid talking about a baby's looks in the first place. One could congratulate the parents or ask questions about the baby or its name. In the case of the Sugiya, what the husband must say to the wife is debated, but here, it is what a friend should say to another friend's baby. Regardless though, one should avoid talking about an ugly baby's look altogether.
המשך קריאה >
2 תגובות
  • Tamar Willis

    Tamar Willis

    3.12.2014| 9:20
    Ari Spellman>

    Don't you think you could say that a baby is cute even if it's ugly because it still has cute features like tiny toes and fingers!?!!? And then you don't have to avoid the topic and you're also not lying

  • Ari Spellman
    Disprove

    Ari Spellman

    3.12.2014| 9:26
    Disprove Tamar Willis>

    Because having cute toes and fingers will get the baby far, right? Nope.4

Ari Spellman

Ari Spellman

3.12.2014| 9:21

I think that with the ugly baby scenario, it would be pointless to tell the parents that their baby is ugly. Not only would it hurt their feelings, but it would not change the looks of the baby. It would make the parents happy if you told them a white lie, it would keep the peace. As in the story with Avraham, if even God is lying to keep the peace surely we should too.

תגובה אחת
  • Ari Spellman

    Ari Spellman

    3.12.2014| 9:22
    Ari Spellman>

    -Talia

Ari Spellman
Contradiction

Ari Spellman

3.12.2014| 9:24

talia says

I do not agree that all brides have a glow that make them beautiful, or that babies are cute even with ugly faces. Even so, while it may not entirely be a lie, it is distancing yourself from a lie.3

Ari Spellman
Disprove

Ari Spellman

3.12.2014| 9:31

But the baby situation is different from the bride situation since it isn't your baby, so you don't need to return it.4

Joshua Silverman

Joshua Silverman

3.12.2014| 9:52
תגובה ל Aharon the Love maker (translation)>

joint response w/ Alex: In this specific case, it is permissible to lie because the end result is peace. In other words, had Aharon not lied, who knows what could have been the outcome of the fight? This is somewhat similar to the case where Avraham lies about Sarah being his sister because in that scenario, Avraham was just trying to keep the peace and avoid being killed.

עדינה גוטליב

עדינה גוטליב

3.12.2014| 9:53
תגובה ל Aharon the Love Maker>

Max and Adina: By enabling each friend to see one another's perspective – to understand how each one is hurting the other – Aharon is bringing them together. Initially, the two friends are separated by their jealousy and hatred, and Aharon reunites them through their mutual understanding of their shortsightedness. Though Aharon is telling a white lie, it is a lie whose end justifies the means; he is lying for the greater good without inflicting any pain.

Alana Spellman

Alana Spellman

3.12.2014| 9:54
תגובה ל Aharon the Love maker (translation)>

Tamar and Alana say: Telling a white lie must be viewed from the lens of utilitarianism. In this scenario, Aharon is doing what is best for the greater good of these two men.

Ari Spellman

Ari Spellman

3.12.2014| 9:54
תגובה ל Aharon the Love Maker>

Talia and Ari: It is obvious that Aharon is lying to them so as to make them see each other's point and resolve their difficulties. This is largely similar to what God did to Avraham when God relayed what Sarah said to herself. God was trying to keep the peace between Avraham, and Aharon does the same thing here.

x

Hi Guys

In Seinfeld- ugly baby episode,

Elaine gets in to trouble with the baffling and charming pediatrician.

do you think that it can provide support the opinions of  Beit Shamai or Brit Hillel ?

is there something new to learn from one of the great Talmudist of our time Rabbi J, Seinfeld?5

מנחה
Question

מנחה

לא-ערוך
5.12.2014| 14:09
Hi Guys

In Seinfeld- ugly baby episode,

Elaine gets in to trouble with the baffling and charming pediatrician.

do you think that it can provide support the opinions of  Beit Shamai or Brit Hillel ?

is there something new to learn from one of the great Talmudist of our time Rabbi J, Seinfeld?

המשך קריאה >
עורך

עורך

27.5.2015| 19:43

The Seinfeld Ugly Baby Dilemma

אודי ליאון

אודי ליאון

23.3.2017| 13:09
תגובה ל "מדבר שקר תרחק" | הרב שרלו>

תגובה לרב שרלו

Matt Gluck

Matt Gluck

24.4.2017| 21:42
תגובה ל Aharon the Love maker (translation)>

Therefore their lying was justified.  This is how Jerry felt.Even though they lied, they did it for the .greater good